In the screener's defense (and I'm not specifically referring to you here Buc) I have to say I've just spent two days in publisher pitch sessions listening to a bunch of good but not great songs, and I also spent time today at a publisher's office watching (and listening) while one of their staff was going through their catalog of 1,800+ songs trying to find which ones to pitch to labels for some upcoming projects. Listening to that for awhile really makes you realize how a song has to grab the listener from the first bar. When you're listening to hundreds of songs at a time, most of them never get past the intro before they're clicking on the next song, and I can see why. There's no sense pitching a song that has a poor demo or sounds even slightly off from the listing when there are so many great songs to choose from.
I heard some really fantastic songs today that have never been cut, and I saw firsthand why our song has to somehow standout from all the others from the first note.
Cam
Cam, that pretty much sums up why "close" or "almost" isn't going to get through. Thanks for sharing your experience!
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 290 Location: Niagara Falls
Re: Country returns « Reply #26 on Oct 22, 2009, 7:46am »
I know what you mean about all the songs available Cam. I use to live in Nashville and have also listened to hundreds of songs. When I was trying to get a deal the publishers would play me song after song, and like Cam said, a lot of the time we'd only listen to a few notes and move on because you knew right away it wasn't going to be what you were looking for. I agree the demo's have to be top notch to even stand a chance these days. I was curious if anyone got a song forwarded to the Tim McGraw listing. I was just a little disapointed that I got all 9's and the reviewer said it might not necessarily be a total fit. If it is indeed that close would it hurt to let someone listen to it? Just a thought. We have finished the rewrite of the song I pitched and it is being re-demo'd next week. We'll see if that helps. As to my original question, It doesn't seem like anyone got a forward on this listing.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,570 Location: Sedona, Arizona
Re: Country returns « Reply #27 on Oct 22, 2009, 8:42am »
I didn't submit for the Tim McGraw listing, so can't help you with that one.
My personal feeling has long been that Taxi SHOULD forward songs that are that close, simply because it's very subjective and the screener never knows exactly what they're looking for either.
Joined: May 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 290 Location: Niagara Falls
Re: Country returns « Reply #28 on Oct 22, 2009, 11:14am »
That's all I am saying too. The listing did say up-tempo's preferred but all tempo's excepted. If you're at a 9 out of 10 rating, why not forward it? That's all I was getting at too. Especially as Cam said, if it's that close why not leave it up to them? If they only play 10 -30 seconds of it and move on, at least you were given the opportunity for having a decent song. IMHO
"I dream of painting and then I paint my dream." ~ Vincent Van Gogh
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,009
Re: Country returns « Reply #29 on Oct 22, 2009, 4:11pm »
... forgive me for playing devil's advocate... but perhaps, the songwriter got his/her 10-30 seconds to impress when the TAXI screener listened to the (entire) song? Perhaps the listing party doesn't want to hear songs that were 9 out of 10s. They want only 10s? Perhaps the listing party respects the knowledge & experience of the TAXI screener as it's similar to their own?
I can't walk in the shoes of an A&R rep, but I assume, when they come to TAXI, that they are getting the full services of those experienced in assessing the commercial viability of tracks in a specific genre. That way they don't have to listen to unsolicited submissions, and they don't have to listen to anything that hasn't blown a screener out of the water first. At any point in time, if they place a call to their resources, they can find hundreds of good prescreened songs to choose from. It makes sense to me that 'absolutely great' is all that will make it through to the next level.
OTOH, I too am a frustrated songwriter/composer who would like the track that got all 9's & a forward from one screener, to not be marked lower & returned by someone else. I try to understand that and move on, but it ain't easy.
Re: Country returns « Reply #30 on Oct 22, 2009, 4:56pm »
I hate to rain on people's parades, but I've decided that pitching to Nashville is not for me. I've heard all the 'then you don't believe in yourself speeches and you must continue to work hard advice,' but at some point, a songwriter needs to throw in the towel and find another niche. Four years of constant discouragement has been enough for me.....I think it's easier to win a lottery than to get a song cut in Nashville.
For one, you got to jump through tons of hoops to get something placed with a publisher. And then after you get a deal, you got to go through tons more hoops to interest a country artist with your songs. And then you have to play all the politics to make sure your song stands out from the competition....that being the pile of songs the artist is considering. And if you don't live in Nashville, it's extremely hard to do this from your computer. If lived in Nashville, maybe it might be a bit easier, but since I don't, I know it's an extremely daunting task.
It's too much work and expense for too little reward.
So I am not pitching to country listings any longer, although I'm still a TAXI member, and I'll still pitch to film and tv if I have something suitable.
I know people have been doing this for years, and I admire that, but at my age, I don't have the luxury of time on my side....it could take 5 to 10 years to get somewhere. I wanna enjoy creating music now and have folks listen to it, so I've found other venues to present my tunes. Money has become less important to me now....getting heard has taken on greater significance.
Here's one thing TAXI did for me....they helped me to become a better songwriter, and it's paid off for me. I'm now getting some notice in a few places. It's small notice in a small venue, but that's good enough for me. I've decided that I just love to create. Pitching all the time took the fun out of music for me. Another thing....going to the TAXI panel meeting on country music opened my eyes. Sure, there are times I get irritated with the TAXI screeners, but if you get down to it, it's not TAXI's fault. They are trying to give Nashville what it wants too....and that's really hard for anyone to do. TAXI has been a mixed bag for me, but as a whole, a good experience. I love those Nashville meetings Michael's had, (the film tv seminar and the panel meeting) and I'll most likely stay a member for the meetings (hopefully a Rally in the future) and continued advice on songwriting. I've come to expect different things of TAXI now....they don't necessarily have to be the vehicle to drive me 'where I must get that cut in Nashville.'
To all those who continue to pitch to the Nashville listings, good luck. I hope you folks make it over the high bar....I would LOVE to see you guys do that.
I would celebrate with you 'coz at least someone got through.
Re: Country returns « Reply #31 on Oct 22, 2009, 9:55pm »
I know people have been doing this for years, and I admire that, but at my age, I don't have the luxury of time on my side....it could take 5 to 10 years to get somewhere. I wanna enjoy creating music now and have folks listen to it, so I've found other venues to present my tunes. Money has become less important to me now....getting heard has taken on greater significance. ----------------------
I started doing this in my late 40s and I expect I'll be doing this until I can't remember which end of the pen goes on the paper There are days I wish I could give it up, there are days I actually do give it up, but I can't give it up for very long. I love the creative process and I love music and mostly I love the people I've collaborated with, and not getting the major cut is just one of the things I've learned to deal with. Not getting the major cut doesn't mean that I don't create wonderful music or that I don't get heard. I also don't strictly pitch to major artists in Nashville - I'm all for indie cuts too.
I agree that Nashville pitching is not for everyone. I guess it is for me. Mostly I could give a rat's ass when my songs get passed on or when Taxi returns them, sometimes it hurts, almost always I know it's not personal. It helps to be a bit insane in this business so you can keep doing the same thing over and over and over and expect different results this time! But who knows, maybe one day I'll hear one of my songs on a CD or on the radio here. That would be fun.
I know people have been doing this for years, and I admire that, but at my age, I don't have the luxury of time on my side....it could take 5 to 10 years to get somewhere. I wanna enjoy creating music now and have folks listen to it, so I've found other venues to present my tunes. Money has become less important to me now....getting heard has taken on greater significance. ----------------------
I started doing this in my late 40s and I expect I'll be doing this until I can't remember which end of the pen goes on the paper There are days I wish I could give it up, there are days I actually do give it up, but I can't give it up for very long. I love the creative process and I love music and mostly I love the people I've collaborated with, and not getting the major cut is just one of the things I've learned to deal with. Not getting the major cut doesn't mean that I don't create wonderful music or that I don't get heard. I also don't strictly pitch to major artists in Nashville - I'm all for indie cuts too.
I agree that Nashville pitching is not for everyone. I guess it is for me. Mostly I could give a rat's ass when my songs get passed on or when Taxi returns them, sometimes it hurts, almost always I know it's not personal. It helps to be a bit insane in this business so you can keep doing the same thing over and over and over and expect different results this time! But who knows, maybe one day I'll hear one of my songs on a CD or on the radio here. That would be fun.
I think that's what it's all about, Claire....doing what you love, and if writing for Nashville still appeals to you, you're still getting something out of it....like writing with people you really like as you say or enjoying the creative process of it all.
Ain't nothing wrong with that. I've found enjoyment in another direction, but we seem to be on the same journey, just down different roads.
The best of luck to you....I know you've had some successes already, and you'll continue to have them.
When I die I want to go peacefully like my Grandad...not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 29 Location: Nashville, TN
Re: Country returns « Reply #34 on Oct 24, 2009, 1:51am »
Hi everyone. Since I've been living and pitching in Nashville for over 20 years, I wanted to weigh in on this thread...and please, take it for what it's worth..one writer's opinion.
Some things I've learned. There is definitely a network in Nash that is hard to become part of. Everyone is a writer or publisher, and wants a piece of the pie. Everytime an artist says he's 'looking' for songs, keep in mind that out of, say, 10 songs on a CD, he has written or cowritten at least 5 himself. That leaves 5. 2, his producer wrote. That leaves 3 spots. 2 more were written and 'on hold' for months since the the last CD by the current 'hot' writers in town. That leaves 1 spot for about, and if I can paraphrase John Sebastian, "1352 guitar pickers in Nashville"..in reality, multiply that by 10. So basically, 13, 520 writers are vying for that one open spot on a country CD.
I know Nashville label A & R people by name, have had countless personal meetings with every label in town, and have had countless songs kept by A & R... (sorta like a Taxi forward). They must then go through their 'kept' songs and make their pitches count. It literally is a crapshoot to get your song heard through label A & R. Most of my cuts have come through management teams, fan club presidents, bus drivers, gardeners, carpenters...etc..you get the idea...Get your songs to the artists through other avenues. Playing live in town is also a great way to get your song heard by artists. I had 2 songs put on hold by Faith Hill herself when she and Tim were out for the evening and happened into a club my band was playing. Needless to say, I freaked out and began putting down payments on houses and pools..lol. No, the songs never got cut, but it was probably the best shot I ever had at hitting the 'lottery', and very rewarding to know at least I was 'in the game'. We did get to play Tim's b-day party at his farm though, so that was pretty cool.
Guess what I'm saying is, ignore the staggering odds. Taxi is one avenue..not the only one. I've learned that pitching creatively is equal to writing creatively. Best of luck, and most of all, love the process and don't define yourself by success. You are awesome. Maybe just nobody knows it yet.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,570 Location: Sedona, Arizona
Re: Country returns « Reply #36 on Oct 25, 2009, 8:21am »
I have to agree with Eddie. The cuts I've seen writers getting lately are either co-written with the artist or by someone who has an "in" with the artist.
I have to agree with Eddie. The cuts I've seen writers getting lately are either co-written with the artist or by someone who has an "in" with the artist.
After spending some time listening to songs written by taxi members and listening to the country top 40 for the last few weeks I would agree as IMO, many of those top 40 country songs would not get forwarded by Taxi and there are quite a few Taxi member songs that are on par and even better. I guess it is like American Idol or America's Got Talent... you must have talent and even more important, a way to get found. Marlin
When I die I want to go peacefully like my Grandad...not screaming like the passengers in his car.
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 29 Location: Nashville, TN
Re: Country returns « Reply #38 on Oct 25, 2009, 1:06pm »
also, keep in mind that many a & r folks are recent 'music biz major graduates', very young and very inexperienced at picking hits...they are sometimes summer interns that got jobs, and taught to discard anything that doesn't sound like 'what's on the radio', and very few will stick their necks out believing in something off the wall in the name of job security. i can't say i really blame them, but that is why the genre is one of the slowest forms of music to grow..stuff today sounds much like stuff 5-10 years ago...
there is an old music row joke that you may or may not have heard:
AN A & R PERSON IS LISTENING TO A SONG WHEN HIS COLLEAGUE TAPS HIM ON THE SHOULDER AND ASKS IF THE SONG IS ANY GOOD. HE REPLIES.."I DON'T KNOW, I'M THE FIRST ONE WHO'S HEARD IT"
thanks again to TAXI for being knowledgeable, professional and discriminating
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,570 Location: Sedona, Arizona
Re: Country returns « Reply #39 on Oct 25, 2009, 1:26pm »
I love that joke Eddie. I played a song for a publisher just this last week that was purposely a little outside the box, and he said "good song, but nobody's doing anything like that right now." Sounds just like your joke.
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5 Location: Philadelphia PA
Re: Country returns « Reply #42 on Nov 4, 2009, 3:08pm »
I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have recently been inspired to write for the "Nashville Market" after venturing into several different musical forays in the past and I am absorbing all I can. Hope you all find success in your writing endeavors.
2 songs I am trying out on my page are Better Late Than Never and 40 is the New 30 if anyone has any thoughts
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 5 Location: Philadelphia PA
Re: Country returns « Reply #44 on Nov 7, 2009, 9:10am »
Thanks Buc. Mostly I'm here as a writer. I'm 41 so I don't expect to be a signed artist if that's what you mean...although you never know I guess. I do my own shows around Philadelphia as a singer/songwriter, not in the country genre. I'm hoping that a well delivered, sparsely arranged demo can compete in the writing arena.
...and that roses song you have is radio ready dude. Call Kenny Rogers people!
Joined: Aug 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 93 Location: Portland, OR
Re: Country returns « Reply #46 on Nov 10, 2009, 3:43pm »
I had two forwards to Nashville. One went to a publisher and the other to a major label but I never heard from either. Recently my skin has started to wear thin so I'm taking a break until some new inspiration comes along.
I have to agree with Eddie. The cuts I've seen writers getting lately are either co-written with the artist or by someone who has an "in" with the artist.
After spending some time listening to songs written by taxi members and listening to the country top 40 for the last few weeks I would agree as IMO, many of those top 40 country songs would not get forwarded by Taxi and there are quite a few Taxi member songs that are on par and even better. I guess it is like American Idol or America's Got Talent... you must have talent and even more important, a way to get found. Marlin
mfowler, you make a really good point here. In a lot of ways it's like auditioning for AI or AGT. If you haven't auditioned, I highly suggest that anyone go through the process of at least Auditioning for AGT. It's a huge eye opening experience. You really get a sense of the entertainment industry as a whole. You don't get to waltz in there and lay your talent out in front of Hoff, Piers, and Sharon O, they have screeners in order to weed out what they are looking for. If you go, either with someone auditioning or audition yourself, pay attention to what is going on around you. It's fascinating. The auditions start the minute you walk through the door, while you're standing in line. Sometimes there are great singers that get turned away, or fabulous entertainers, and it's really not a good fit for the show, and they don't get called back. Elvis auditioned for a talent show back in the day and got turned away, we will never know why he got turned away. To assume that he was the consummate performer then, may be assuming too much. If you think you've got the raw talent to write hit songs, keep writing, keep improving, don't stop writing. Keep plugging away, if you're that good, people will take notice and you will get forwarded. But you've got to keep improving and working and pushing yourself to write a hit. Isn't that what we all want to write? a hit?
Re: Country returns « Reply #49 on Dec 1, 2009, 9:50pm »
...so Cameron & Bucyboy...do you feel like Taxi is a waste? Should somebody like myself who's new to taxi and only about 2 years into the "getting myself out there" be concentrating on other avenues?...like contacting publishers directly? I've only been a taxi member for about 3 months...so far I have 9 returns and 1 forward. Optimistically, at this rate, I should have 4 forwards by the end of the year...and I'm sure my chances of those 4 forwards being selected is extremely low. One of you suggested moving to Nashville...maybe I'll just do that...but regardless of where I live (Seattle), it would seem that I would need to make that "first" contact...and at this point that seems so difficult to do. I do have contacts who live in Nashville and Memphis, who work with big name artists...but they are engineers or artists themselves who are guess what? Looking for contacts!? I've accepted the fact that I'm not going to make any money at this...but I'm hoping that one day, I'll get a check...at least once...I'll take one dollar at this point. j/k! but seriously...just kidding..
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